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"Feminine is okay" "you don't need to be masculinity/anrogyny to be strong Anonymous 218895

This post is for women who experienced transactivists and others chiding that "you're in need of "healing" if you're androgynous, gnc or masculine presenting as a woman.

Why is it only "toxic masculinity" if the person in question is female while truly toxic masculinity, in men is let off the hook? Has anyone experienced this besides me on social media?

Im not really masculiine presenting, personally, but im completely indifferent to femininity without masculinity.

Everyone I knew in my life who was feminine ended up used, abused and or living like a doormat because they didn't know how to turn off sweet, say no, they didnt know how to embrace indifference, turn off the endless emotional laboring. And my God inmean EVERYONE. There is not one woman I used to know who ended up in some kind of parasitic one sided or exhausting relationship.

I am ngl after my upbringing I absolutely hate femininity by itself, where self sabotaging, self flagelating behavior is expected of women. Men should be ugly, women should be pretty.

People should just be good and equally attractive and that includes men, but you have to know how to live with nasty men and give them cold indifference because in my experience they live to manipulate the women in their lives and exhaust them with neglect.

Has anyone experienced this slimy manipulating sisterhood on social media saying "it's OK to be feminine" or "if you arent feminine you need healing" ?

Femininity makes me sick to my stomach. It feels like destroying myself, setting myself up for massive unhappiness. Like becoming my stupid af mother who took abuse growing up and opened her kids up to all of it. Femininity next to to masculinity just looks deeply unbalanced to me.
Like putting out cheese for the nastiest rats that would take the whole house not just the cheese.

If you feel this way discuss. How the hell is the failure of femininity by itself not discussed more? It really feels like leaving your precious things out on the street with no security to be stolen by masculinity.

If you experience any of these feelings of disgust towards the hetoronormative dynamic, and or.. towards brainwashing in general.. post about it here.

This is not a thread to discuss the validity of being gnc. Please don't derail my thread.

Anonymous 218898

You seem to miss the point of the post.

Anonymous 218927

I said femininity by itself multiple times. By itself femininity is a ton of emotional laboring, and being manipulated to perform a role that psychologically undermines you in the long run. It's honestly just being groomed for easy access to sex and control by a moid.

Anonymous 218936

Based real and true, why should women be expected to alter themselves in ways men would never even consider.

Anonymous 218972


It makes me sad when I think about the potential of women if they weren't groomed by cultural standards into this Princess Motherly Feminine Beauty role.

Women, unlike men, tend to do things that are expected of them with a lot of diligence and dutifulness. That is why you can see women who hold extremist beliefs, are into fucked up shit, but they still manage to hold an office job. Males are only seldom capable of that, as they are more susceptible to falling down rabbit holes and fucking up their entire lives. This means that if the expectation for "true womanhood" were strong, self-reliant and capable women, then most women would opt in to be strong, self-reliant and capable. I think it would improve a lot of things; among which is mental health of women worldwide as they wouldn't be so insecure and forced to rely on parasitic men.

The rare few women who abandon conformity prove that the real abilities of women are, for the most part, still unexplored. So, although there are aspects of traditional "femininity" that could be considered good traits, femininity as it's defined now is nothing more than a cage to cripple women's potential.

Anonymous 218992

It sounds more like differing points of view within the feminist community, to me.

I think it's really smart to refuse to give up your femininity though as long as you know the mind games men and misogynist women will use to take advantage of it. They will enjoy watching you naively crash and burn in whatever way they set you up to fail. You're practically set up from the beginning.

When I was really young, like 14, 15 I had no idea. It took a while to figure it out.

Anonymous 219029


This is at least somewhat backed up by psychology research

Anonymous 219034

I agree with you, I think. I wouldn't have just described it as femininity without masculine aspects though, because it's a very wishy washy concept that can mean different things to different people. I think it is simply the impact of abuse and oppression that goes way back, women are not inherently weak. We are caged and denied humanity, used and often abused both in and out of the home, from childhood. Women's rights movement and feminism has evolved so rapidly compared to many others, that there's no anchor in place to even build valuable community for women. The lgbt community has that and people facing racism may find a safe place within communities associated with their ancestry.

I blame wealthy people for the way the concept of femininity has been boiled down to fragility, the same with purity culture. Enduring what women have out of duty for so long, is anything but fragile. Our strength has been used against us by the laziest, most self serving people.

Anonymous 219036

Do you know how to access the entire paper/ book?

Anonymous 219052

https://sci.hubg.org/ for finding any papers you want nona

Anonymous 219057

I can say that when i tried to be feminine it felt so incredibly uncomfortable to the point i just went back to being more "masculine" (tbh i don't consider it to be masculine. Just being myself and comfortable). I have no idea how some women put up with this constant maintenance (by that i don't mean hygiene, i mean the makeup, the clothes, the constant stressing about calories when you weight normally, etc etc…) It must be so physically and emotionally draining at the end. What is there to gain from this? it all feels like it just gives you fake self-esteem that shatters the moment you take all that makeup off/eat a snack/go back to comfy PJs/etc… Maybe I'm weird. I've always felt like i'm the one that wasn't normal for not wanting to put up with all this effort that I frankly don't see where it would lead me. What is the point? To score a guy? At least this is what my mother tells me why I should do these. I don't want that.

Anonymous 219061

Basically demonstrates that 'femininity' and 'masculinity' and associated gender roles are fake; this used to be a common idea at some point. Also 'femininity' relates a lot to a woman's physical looks and worth, whereas 'masculine' is mostly mental, at least nowadays. Fat men, skinny men, buff men- they are all still masculine if they're confident, loud, and self-serving. To be sufficiently 'feminine' you need physical markers of femininity and a personality that caters specifically to others. All bogus.

Anonymous 219069

The part of my life when my mental health was the worst was when I was forcing myself to be hyper feminine it's genuinely something you can never achieve. You're always thinking about what to "fix" about yourself next.

Anonymous 219086

agrred, it's just so exhausting

Anonymous 219092

Aaaand what Men want is increasingly irrelevant to to a fuckton of women these days. Increasingly they want no part in relationships or children. Hey no heres a thought, do something to be remotely attractive to women for once. Men need women. They pile onto dating apps in disproportionate numbers to get laid and are the only gender that flood a person's inbox to obnoxiously pursue them. You say all this but men act pretty damn needy that way on all social apps. Dating apps or any kind of social app its like a universal law lmao.

Meanwhile I can go my whole life without any of it, and be perfectly happy because existence with more than half of moids is not worth the price. Which makes dating one of the biggest chores a woman ever has to perform in her life. Keep lying to yourself that moid shenanegans matter though. Someday you're going to hit the wall moid, and it's really gonna be agonizing because women wont notice and they can absolutely adore solitude and simplicity that would drive a moid out of his damn mind apparently. You see moids agonize about it online like there's no tomorrow.

Anonymous 219122

I sometimes see mgtow incels saying the same exact thing about women.
I think people tend to want to connect with each other, and they hide from the pain of failure and loss by pretending theyre're superior to other people.

Anonymous 219156

People may want to connect with each other, but women are not going to want to connect with rude, mean, porn addicted, ugly men. Likewise, a lot of men only want to connect with young, attractive, naive teenage girls. I guess it's unrealistic expectations all around.

Anonymous 219168

no its just that i dont want to be with loser ugly porn addicted retarded manchildren. im not protecting my feelings, because i dont habe any for these "people" if we put aside contempt and disgust. if anything im protecting my life because they kill women lol

Anonymous 219182

The bottom line is when a woman gets with a guy or dates it is usually a net loss for her. Of course I would like to meet a nice guy. But do I want to weed through the chaffe for 15 years and waste my life worrying about it when it's unrealistic? Lmao men say " you need to gave realistc expections" but staying single IS realistic. I don't want unnecessary burden in my life by settling for Chaffe. That is as realistic as it gets!

Lol if you can't make my existence better than it already is single, then there is no point for me. There are simply way too many porn addicted, emotionally abusing, leeching man children. I don't want to be a mommy to a grown man. I would rather just look after myself.

Anonymous 219979

I really hate this whole thing in relation to tifs and gcs. If there's a comparison between a before/after of a tif they'll bemoan how pretty she was before and how she ruined herself, as if the issue is she doesn't want to be feminine and not that she can't accept herself as a gnc woman. This also happens around detrans stuff as well and even if there is a gnc woman who isn't a tif but has been assumed to be one, they start going on about how pretty and feminine she is which is just weird if she's comfortable being masculine or whatever. It's just funny how so many of them reinforce the same gender roles they claim to hate when appropriated by troons.

I just don't think you can escape the gender roles so ingrained in everyone's minds even if they think they don't believe in them, it still seeps out how they think women should be feminine and anything that challenges that idea is somehow an attack on them and their femininity.

Anonymous 219990

I do and I honestly even look down on too much in your face femininity. Most of the time it seems put on. Like agonizingly so. You can usually sense the desperation to perform a role if a woman seems obsessed with it. Theyre never real. It is cringey af to come across like that kind of tryhard, thats all im saying. Anyone who actually tries to impose that on me would get chewed out. They never hear the end of it. Like if you can't just act normal and forget about your stupid inane performance just stfu and grow up. I don't know how most people can't tell sense how cringy it is.

There is something between feminine and masculine and it is just normal. I actually don't feel like most women are even all that femininity obsessed in most cases. They just go along in their daily lives doing what they have to.

Anonymous 220044

Yeah, I also dislike heteronormativite roles and femininity that is meant to appeal to men. The way hets flirt with each other in a way that exaggerates their roles skeeves me out, and when men have feelings for me I'm repulsed by them trying to put me in the same box. It's uncanny.
That said I am attracted to feminine women, though mainly the types who don't dress up to their detriment (natural face and no heels, for example), or do so in a way that's too wacky and bizarre to ever be pickme to men, and whose personalities don't conform to feminine expectations. They come across as "naturally" feminine leaning rather than forcing themselves into the mold.
I'm also a bit feminine myself in some ways, like enjoying cute things and "feminine" crafts and the arts. Being empathetic and caring about people (not to my own detriment) is also feminine for some reason so that too, I guess.
I used to have NLOG rage when I was a young gnc girl and hated ANY feminine trait, but have since realized that many are useful to societal function and my own enjoyment in life (eg. Being emotionally open, caring for those in need like kids/animals, gentleness, cleanliness, caring about aesthetics, etc.). I may not exhibit them all but I now admire those who do. For me, I was just biting back at pressure to perform and lie about who I am. But being hateful is tiring, and I'm not a complete Masc King myself kek. Much respect to women who are extremely masculine and confident though, they're just as amazing.

The pleasing men and pretending to be something you aren't, rather than the femininity itself which is just a set of neutral traits which either emerge in some people or don't, is what makes me cringe. Bee yourself or whatever. I also doubt many people are naturally fully "feminine with no masculinity" as you put it, which I agree puts women at risk to be harmed by men or used by people.

Anonymous 220062

Why is everyone so hellbent on slapping labels onto everything these days. Maybe I'm just getting old but like in the late 90s and early 00s people and society seemed far less judgemental, labels like toxic masculinity/femininity didn't exist, you were either an asshole or not and gender played little into these things

Anonymous 220063

Gender doesn't exist and this generation puts way too much stock into it. I'm a marxist feminist and i only believe in sex-based oppression and haven't once been called a terf, the troons even nod their heads along in agreement if you come about it the right way. The real problem is the paradigm of hyper individualisation in late capitalism or postmodernity (it's working conditions and costs of living's fault if you're left wing, the breakdown of families and traditions fault if you're right wing). Where once people would get their value from their "tribe" (ie are you a mother, an arrowsmith or a hunter or a textile weaver? don't revolve around sex) they now need intrinsic value like a consumer product, complete with shiny packaging. I would argue if you're thinking too much about gender or "gender identity" at all you need to work on your personality, character or achievements. Literally define yourself with anything else at all. "Gender" doesn't exist, if it did i wouldn't be able to tell immediately what sex everyone what born from even text posts alone. I could go off all day but i'll leave you with a "The industrial revolution and its consequences have been a disaster for the female sex. " sage the post and peace out

Anonymous 220070

you're right but also ted hated commies.

Anonymous 220131

You're right if that is the community you currently live in. It certainly isn't where I am, or the the middle east.. india.. South Korea. That is an extremely rare kind of society you're describing.

Anonymous 220137

It's a no Brainer. You really have to tell a ton of lies to yourself to avoid seeing how femininity is manipulated and used against women and how women have their minds destroyed by gaslighting. If that isn't you well thank God but it still sounds naive.

Anonymous 220157

Consumer culture and capitalism. The corporate world always loved dividing people into various groups for targeted marketing, to know whom to sell what product to. They only recently started pushing this idea into a broader social scope. Identity politics really couldn't be more convenient for our corpo overlords - if the wagies fight each other over manufactured culture war bullshit and their identity in relation to others, they won't notice what is really going on.

Anonymous 220205

Look up the concept of individualistic society and collective society through the lense of social psychology. I think it describes what you're saying through a similar lense

Anonymous 220490

Tell that to women who couldn't own a credit card in the 50s or land for most of history! What are you smoking?? It used to be WORSE. infinitely worse.

Anonymous 220500

Feudal era was better than after the industrial revolution for the peasants. When families, communities and villages existed before the industrial revolution women had rich culture and traditions. Women were the weavers, artisans and textile makers; skills that translated so well to computing that the first computers and programs were designed by women. Now they will call a mediocre male programmer a "woman in computing" and an achievement like it wasn't stolen from us to begin with after ww2. The royals, nobles and aristocrats always treated women like objects, now it infects the middle class much the same. Marx said something like "Not content with their own wives the capitalist must try to hoard women in a similar fashion to wealth or status objects". Marxist feminism is always overlooked because troons call themselves marxist but they are in for a rude awakening.

Anonymous 220501

Sorry for my double post anons
yeah ted was also mk ultra'd and mccarthyism is hardly scarce in the USA
Thankfully I live on terf island. I would recommend staying far from the cities if you value your sanity while postmodernity is playing out.

Anonymous 221193

>Feudal era was better than after the industrial revolution for the peasants. When families, communities and villages existed before the industrial revolution women had rich culture and traditions. Women were the weavers, artisans and textile makers;

I genuinely cannot understand how anyone says any time period before the 60s was good for women. Being forced into marriage, forced to have children sounds utterly disgusting to me. Without technology? They couldn't so much as breath without invoking moralizing criticism, being called a witch or being sent to an insane asylum by their husband. Every ancient, middle age, etc… period before the 60s pretty much ensured you were domestic cattle

Anonymous 221222

You realize that's mostly shitty propaganda right?
Especially the witch shit.
>>Current scholarly estimates of the number of people who were executed for witchcraft vary from about 35,000 to 50,000. The total number of witch trials in Europe which are known to have ended in executions is around 12,000.
That is absolutely nothing if you consider the frame of time and size of populations (this is a span of 350 years). More women die yearly from toasters now than from witch burnings, even adjusted for population size.
Not only that but they usually just wanted a "conversion" out of them. That's why so few died. You could "recant" your beliefs.

While women did have to bear children, that is true, the convent was certainly an option, which also afforded social status. EVERYONE also actually got far more days off than now and lived on a healthier diet. Not only that, but women had much more independence than you'd think. The men left to go logging/mining/merchanting/hunting/warring while the women from the village met up and did their work together, under their own authority. Even as recently as the mid 1890s for European countries which got to the industrial revolution late.
>>insane asylum
Didn't exist under feudalism. Mentally ill were the families responsibility. Even nunneries

You've been fed a ton of bullshit under a system that doesn't want you to turn against it.
Not everything was terrible. Though some things were certainly worse.
In fact the only reason women even had to have so many children was child mortality. The died at the ripe old age of 40 meme is simply historians averaging out the age of death. If you survived past childhood you had a pretty long life on average.

Anonymous 221234

>While women did have to bear children, that is true, the convent was certainly an option, which also afforded social status. EVERYONE also actually got far more days off than now and lived on a healthier diet. Not only that, but women had much more independence than you'd think. The men left to go logging/mining/merchanting/hunting/warring while the women from the village met up and did their work together, under their own authority

Could you make it sound any shittier??? And lets not forget marriage rape and beatings were the universal standard. I wasn't just legal to beat your wife, it was encouraged.

Even when you were dirt fucking poor(MOST people were dirt poor back then, living on an average of 2 dollars a day) the ape husband with no money would still rape you and force you to live on the brink in desperation with (on average) 10+ kids. There was no break for a woman. Lmao are you joking?? You really sound like you know your stuff. A woman's day would never end with the insane amount of bullshit forced on her to done BY HAND. Don't even get me started on diseases, infection, childbirth with no hospital,no antibiotic, no pain med. MOST People back then lived a wretched, harrowing existence.

Anonymous 221238

Just join a convent and be a lesbian lol.
That's what all of them did back then. And they got praised for doing it.
And no. It wasn't encouraged to beat your wife.
You have some rather odd ideas.

And yeah. I guess people were poor.
Too bad that poverty supplied better food. They didn't have microplastics and chemicals in everything either. Nor a constant advertising/social engineering assault via social media.

>>A woman's day would never end with the insane amount of bullshit forced on her to done BY HAND

Nor did anyone's. And again. With all the religious holidays, a peasant worked less than the average person today.
>>Don't even get me started on diseases, infection, childbirth with no hospital, no antibiotic
They did have some methods. Some of them were even decent.

Anonymous 221241

Yeah no virtually none of that sounds remotely liveable. I would worship the devil just to spite all of them. I'd hope to be dead every day.

Anonymous 221242

Well enjoy being a product instead.
I'm sure the panopticon modern governments built will totally leave you alone.
What do you think about the horrors of thought monitoring technology?
Or AI absorbing a ton of higher paying white collar work which women have just broken into?

Anonymous 221250

I think it will blow up in their face and people will be more indifferent to corpotate control than ever. I think people would have a ton less to lose in the face of fascism and something huge would come to a head.

Either way still infinitely better than being a babymaking machine.

Anonymous 221251

And anyway I hear a lot of resentment towards work. What is your day job? I think you glorify life in the past, and idealize like was easy where you could grow your own food and that was that. Subsistence farmers often had THE most wretched existence though and they were at the mercy of the climate, famine, geopolitics, wars. Have you ever played third world farmer? At least the modern third world farmer had pesticides.

Anonymous 221256

>>I think it will blow up in their face and people will be more indifferent to corpotate control than ever. I think people would have a ton less to lose in the face of fascism and something huge would come to a head.
So nothing concrete then?
Especially as the next generations will be brainwashed to think its a good thing?
Just like they do for Troons. And Porn. And Tate. And drugs.
>>What is your day job?
Sales research. Something VERY vulnerable to these disruptions.
>>climate, famine, geopolitics, wars
And now we don't?
We are now facing the 6th mass extinction on earth. There are 1 million species at risk of being wiped out within the next 3 decades.
Global warming is going to get far worse IF it even gets better.
There are now nuclear weapons. And we are clearly going into a much more competitive period geopolitically. Supposedly globalization is even dying because demographics are just so fucked everywhere.
And wars are far more lethal, with weapons having much more range. In a much more fragile society. All while old timey wars, only the men largely died.

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