I wanna go back so bad. No patriarchy. No property. So much freedom and free time. Nice people. No need to derive meaning from religion.
Delusion tbh. Patriarchy started existing the second males realized they could use their physical strength to subjugate women and control our reproductive function. The only utopia worth dreaming about is a female only community where males get shot on sight and roasted above the fire
No. Patriarchy started existing with personal property. We used to live in smaller communities where cooperation was built on authentic mutual respect for one another rather than bullshit property-based hierarchies. Violent and selfish people used to be excluded from tribes instead of them rising to the top - afterall natural selection hasnt favored humans for their physical strength, but rather their social intelligence.
Just google "patriarchy and agriculture". Theres tons of information on this.
I feel sad for how you undervalue the capacity for empathy, openmindedness and emotional intelligence in men. They all have these qualities deep down but society has been harsh
You're mentally ill, I advise seeking help otherwise you will end up harming yourself.>>96714
This. Some tribes abused their women but most of them relied on co-operation.
You're calling me mentally ill and yet you're on cc too. Curious
Anon. Female mammals are treated like shit most of the times. Males are just stronger and have their brains bathing in testosterone since they turn 12. If anything, organized socity has wrangled them to respect and protect women in some way.
Really? And how exactly do primitive peoples go about excluding the strong and violent without being strong and violent themselves?
They don't, which is how society evolved into what it is, the strong and violent ruling, or ruling because they are backed by strong and violent armies/police forces.
I'm having a harder time with OP's statement on religion. I'm pretty sure early humans still had spiritual beliefs, even if they weren't organized religions in the modern sense. I'd love an atheist cavegirl utopia but I don't know how the fuck you're supposed to have that in a time with no scientific knowledge.
Something about this post is just so funny to me
Glorb tips his buffalo fur hat, "Muh'womun," he utters with a 'charming' smile, "do you know, sun not magic? Shaman cave runes is fiction. Me tell more on date?" You walk away without a word.
>>96745>how exactly do primitive peoples go about excluding the strong and violent without being strong and violent themselves?
Through socialising. We have evolved language to get along. We are human
because we cooperate and use our brains rather than physical strength.
>They don't, which is how society evolved into what it is, the strong and violent ruling, or ruling because they are backed by strong and violent armies/police forces.
Society evolved into this after agriculture. You literally realised yourself that what youre saying doesnt make much sense without organizations (armies/police forces) existing. And it hasnt even been the strong people that have been on the top. Status has usually been inherited. Violent they have however been, since other people have been reduced to mere pawns from their point of view.>>96742
Yes but what makes us human is going beyond our primitive impulses.>>96750
Yeah, i worded what i meant pretty badly. I was referring to organized religions limiting human imagination and being the only places people have been allowed to derive their purpose from. The scientific revolution changed things but has left many people feeling devoid of purpose since they are stuck unable to accept that the point of life is to live without having to serve something greater (def not speaking for everyone though, this is more personal).
This is going to sound like a real insufferable weeb statement but consider reading up on Asian animist religions like Shinto and Dao. Being raised around primarily the Abrahamic religions gives you this weird sense that faith needs to means something and give you your direction in life. Sometimes a religion is just a general understanding of which local spirits you need to avoid. Sometimes a religion is just a philosophy on how to treat others well. I don't believe in any religion, but learning about less rigid faith structures is very helpful for finding your own personal position on faith.
Pre-agriculture humanity was almost certainly animist.
Same delusional dickriding retrophile from another thread, i see. I wish you can go back too, just to see you get proven wrong.
>get married off at 12
>husband beats you every time he gets home from hunting
>tribe gets raided, you get gang-raped and abducted
>considered an old woman by the time you're 30
People in this thread who believe the marxists' nonsense pre agriculture utopia are not even in the same galaxy as the right answer.
Mammals and many other animals are raped all the time; literally without medicine most women die in child birth cause theres no birth control and in order to just keep the population STABLE all women had to have AT LEAST 5 children EACH. Men always hold the power cause women marry young, birth young and die young. More thean 60% of all babies died before 10 years old. Women before the pill and proper hospitals were treated like garbage. Without modern contraceptives we'd be fucking nothing.
I like the idea in theory but only an idealised version of it. Where there are no clocks, no deadlines, just earth and sky. Land doesn't belong to any government, it's still waiting to be discovered. The earth provides and you're always close to it. There are no streetlights, just stars. I want to live in a cavewoman fairytale.>>96756
PFFFF and then glorb went to watch a stream in the darkness of his cave, a literal stream of running water
My sides were sent to the moon
Sounds like an incel fantasy tbh. >>96832
This. I want cottagecore but without the invention of agriculture. Cavecore I guess
Glorb can tell you for hours about how perfect the forms of the shadows on the cave wall are, but if you tell him they're just shadows he gets really defensive. Womun not understand high art.
They hated her because she told them the truth.
This fantasy would be nice for autistic girls like me, because I automatically just get provided all of the friends and extended family I would ever need and it's not required of me to use my piss-poor social skills to get them myself.
I never thought I would see someone dumber than that one anon who learned social skills via shoujo anime. But you just got the grand prize of the greatest fool of all CC. Good job!!>>96704
Alternatively it is those goddess cults (as in the Greco-Roman definition) if we assume they were never influenced by the patriarchy as per the existence of "sacred" prostitution.
queen spilled, scrotes and handmaidens mad
Literally go look at how free the women are in barely contacted tribes
There was a tribe in Brazil that had members leave and told stories. One guy was saying he was the designated old woman killer; cause as they got older, they had no teeth, couldnt have children and were weak so they were holding the tribe back.
He fucked an axe into their skulls when they weren't looking and everyone in the tribe agreed to it.
>>96900>He fucked an axe into their skulls
Not that anon but "she/he fucked" is a common way of phrasing "threw"/"throw" in the UK and Ireland. Example, "mary take this and fuck it in the bin for me"
hideous slang. br*ts need to stop their assault on our shared language.
I'm the first reply to op and literally you people hate me because I tell you the truth
it's just hyperbolic, i don't personally care if anons are dramatic for the sake of being a little silly. they just want a reason to call other anons femcels or whatever. i don't immediately read posts like yours as being drop dead serious but maybe other anons do
I bet some of 'em anons want you to get stoned
for speaking the truth.
i don't think it's funny. i don't like words that act as if there's a sizable community of female counterparts to horrible men that want to do horrible things. that sucks any ironic humor out of it.
I don't actually shoot men and roast them above a fire. If anyone was wondering
But really do you guys really think that stone age moids were able to control their libido and respect women and have the emotional intelligence required for these things? Do you really think they asked for consent and went for a mutually enjoyable sexual experience? If a paleo scrote wanted you and wanted to spread his rotten seed, he would have overpowered you. Maybe even together with his buddies. Enemy tribes would have violated children and women as trophies of war (which still happens today and has happened since forever). You would have gotten impregnated the second you started your period and lost your virginity long before that
i don't disagree. anons feel the need to cape bc you said the shot and roasted thing, even though it pretty clearly wasn't serious. as for op, she's delusional like that other anon that loves old historical portraits and wants to go back to the 1600s where she thinks women were able to write freely and were respected, but i don't care enough to shit on her cavewoman fantasies.
lol do you think you would survive? most people that have this "return to monke" delusion are neets who are being taken care of by someone else.
>It dissapoints me that most women do exactly what we've accused men of: using the freedom and power for sex, it's quite disheartening.
wtf are you talking about?
How can you go back to something you never experienced? And don't know if it truly ever existed, except in fantasies?
What? You know people used to have children at an very early age that time, don't you? The only difference is that it was normal.
>have almost turned the world into a matriarchy at this point
girl you cannot possibly believe this
You want us all to die virgins?
Word. I've got this one down.
Does patriarchy exist in the animal kingdom?
Such a bad faith comment. Are you guys seriously yearning to return to such a primal state that you're on the same level as an animal? Also chimpanzees and other apes rape females all the time. So do a lot of other species. Have you ever watched mammals during mating season? The males often beat the females to a pulp until they're weakened enough to mate with
>screenshot of FDS in 2021
Mind you that most of them have actual children–majority of which had them with L/NVMs, lamentably–since the userbase there is usually over the age of 30 up to 50somethings; so, that kind of behavior from moids is 50x more impactful to them than the rest of the online feminist population.
I only checked FDS a few times, was their userbase largely parents and actually 30-50? I thought they were mostly child free young women ?
Yeah they have them very deep down, but it's not just 'society' to blame for them being this way. How many times more do men have testosterone than women? And what does testosterone does to your brain? It's part of their being, like it or not. It doesn't help that they think more testosterone = good, less testosterone = bad, because women are weak and testosterone-less.
>>96826>Mammals and many other animals are raped all the time
You'll need to deliver proof on that
This legit sounds like something a moid from these anti fds stalking subs would say
If anything, having experience with moids makes their words more valid, because it doesn't come out of a teenaged girls' mouth that didn't experience most of the moid fuckery yet.
Yeah it is. If you think about it, the whole concept of bagging a “high value” man holds more weight if you have children who need a father. Childfree young women have no need for a man of any value unless they just really don’t want to work for some reason. Needing a dating strategy, or dating in general, is irrelevant if you’re self sufficient and have friends lmao.
>>97295>dating in general, is irrelevant
Explain. I think the other anon is correct.
we invented words we will tell you how to use them mkay
Uh no lol. Aboriginal hunter gatherer tribes would force marriages on women and if they tried to run away they'd get spears shoved in their thigh.
Often times they'd be forced to marry old men who couldn't carry their workload so their 13 yeaar old wives had to pick up thr slack.
Wife beating was common, wife lending, and if course rape.
Hunter gatherer tribes havi g gender equality or even treating women with decency is a total lie. The moment a man realizes he is stronger than you he uses his strenght to opress you.
Just because you want to return to a primitive lifestyle doesn't mean you need to sugarcoat what it was actually like, it was rough, especially for women.
Still, nothing compared to the mental and environmental anguish modern life has caused.
There’s been abusers throughout history, even till today. Doesn’t mean all men were like that, did your father treat your mother like that? If so well that doesn’t mean everyone’s father is as bad as yours
people are getting happier over time not sadder
What makes you think caveman times was anything but "patriarchy"?
I wouldn't mention it if it wasnt common practice, some were kinder to women but they all treated women with some sort of disrespect, manifesting in violence and rape pp many cultures.>>105592
Yes, that's why mental illness is getting worse over time, because people are so happy.
>>105620>Yes, that's why mental illness is getting worse over time, because people are so happy.
People talk more about it and it isn't the taboo that it was 10 years ago. It doesn't mean that "mental illness is getting worse".
plus a lot of people are exaggerating their symptoms or collecting diagnosis like they're fucking pokemon for clout
I feel like this is partially a consequence of fucked up identity politics. Who wants to be a "normie" when it's become so common to shit on anyone "privileged"? Finding a mental illness to identify with makes you a minority which means you can be a victim too. I wouldn't be surprised if this is affecting the # of diagnoses recently
Victimhood is profitable, you get an excuse to be an arsehole and get loads of attention, if they aren't already exaggerating their "trauma" and "mental illness" for pity points, you better bet someone will try and convince you (often by making you feel like society thinks you should be ashamed, then telling you to rebel against the shame they implanted in your mind) that you are so you can join their elite club. Its disgusting, but people are getting worse over the years. The attention seeking is caused by their mental illness, their mental illness is caused by modern life, its a cycle that feeda itself.
>>105642>posting imperialist propaganda
It's easy to paint whatever picture you want. It doesn't mean anything.
>>105640>identity politics is when you pretend to have a mental illness because it's hip but actually end up killing yourself
Do you even listen to yourself? Holy shit how can people on this site be so fucking ignorant? This is what "no politics" does to a mf
>>105650>assuming all mental illness ends up with suicide
girl can you reread my post? I wasn't even replying to you silly
You said that mental illness isn't
getting worse, to which another anon replied with a graph showing that suicide statistics have gotten worse. Obviously, suicide is tied to mental illness most of the time.
Then you claimed that this is because people want to be cool and not normie so they choose
to identify with mental illnesses, which affects the amount of diagnoses, which, according to you, somehow affects the graph of actual suicides that the anon posted? If that's not what you were trying to say then why did you reply to the graph like that?
except that wasn't my post sis, only thing I posted was this >>105640
It isn’t getting worse just because there’s more people or we’re talking about it more, it’s getting worse because there’s less medical coverage for those who need it
>>105648>studies conducted by the best universities in the world give me congnitive dissonance >t-they are propaganda!
Nice one, anon. Too bad you don't have evidence.
That is an inbound evolutionary trait, not an evil invention by Satan. Patriarchy started when moids understood they could oogabooga their way into the hierarchy
In first world nations, the % of suicides, people on meds, people who need to be treated for mental issues, people who do not reporte being happy with their lives or being just "depressed" has been overall increasing for decades, especially among young people.>>105642>le poverty index>le magical happyness index>le buying power gaussian coefficient theorem according to 7yewrfbuwefd's trigonometric equation
These things are not indicative of reality of mental well-being, stop living in the world of economical indexes and largely useless parametres, only economists care about those. The fact that in already developed nations all measurable indicators of mental health are plummeting should at least make you question if we are on the right path.
Never was there a matriarchy, but only because women share and believe in fairness. They raised their children to value these things. Sedentary life led to larger populations and raids by the nomadic peoples. Bronze tools turned to bronze weaponry and hunting bands tuned to security patrols. Generals turned to warrior chiefs (a real brain drain on the wise men and wise women that once oversaw the tribes/communities). Death by a thousand paper cuts.
A physical inevitability. Once our animalistic forebears lived more like this. But we advanced somehow. Something in our diets grew our brains and shrank our jaw power. Some now extinct mushrooms maybe. Apparently interbred with various other humanoid peoples. But truly civilized society existed and kept us warm for the last ice age. Till a trickster god gave us gifts that “improved” life’s hardships.
I don’t think we can be rid of the gifts, but we must learn to put them away. Like a child puts away his toys one last time as he grows into teenage hood. We can do it. Currently reading up on how to myself.
They literally are though. Until not so long ago most people didn't have to care about mental health because they would die before they were 5.
Right now people have:>more food>more access to doctors>live longer, which means having your folks and relatives around for longer>more access to education>a more confortable, easy life by any measurement>Internet
If you think people were happy when they were dying at five because there was no food and those that survived had to work for 18 hours a day just to survive until they were 30, well, sorry, you're put simply, retarded.
What a gross exaggeration of what it was like back then
You're all aware that violence being the supreme authority ruled before we established rules and founded societies right? If you were strong and not yet mamed badly enough you were able to take whatever you wanted from whomever you wanted as long as you were willing to risk your safety to get it.
What do you think that means for a woman living in those times?
>>105860>You're all aware that violence being the supreme authority ruled before we established rules and founded societies right? If you were strong and not yet mamed badly enough you were able to take whatever you wanted from whomever you wanted as long as you were willing to risk your safety to get it.
Almost true. Even if the moid wasn't maimed, it's pretty easy for two guys to take out one. Even ye olde unga bunga times leaders of groups had to remain somewhat
amicable to his underlings or get killed, no matter how strong you were, as two guys are stronger than one almost every single time. This social structure is observed in chimps which makes it older than humans. Just being strongest unga bunga wasn't good enough, the moid had to be somewhat sociable and not get too many grudges held against him or he would get fucked.
Lol, people have studied tribes of primitive people who live very close to what they would have lived. Sure, death was high, but you exaggerated it a shit ton. People lived until their late 40s, and not everyone died at 5. Besides, the world is overpopulated, people live too long (the desire to live longer stems from an unfulfilling life), and human life is overvalued. Why don't you actually read one of the many accounts of primitive peoples out there instead of making assumptions? People evolved to live that lifestyle, not the one we live today. Don't act like it would he impossible for anyone to get by just because you cant imagine a life without internet.
While a lot primitive tribes were far from matriarchal utopias, this just plays into the myth of caveman courtship. The whole image of a caveman capturing a woman and dragging her back to his cave is literal moid propaganda that intends to make male dominance over women seem "natural".>>96703>I wanna go back so bad.
That being said, no you fucking don't. A pre-agricultural tribe isn't the paradise you're dreaming up. It's a shithole and you would have died before you reached thirty. "muh ancient society" is a moid-tier larp, it's better to think of women's futures instead rather than wanting to return to that shit.
Indeed. It was a lot worse than I've pictured. Again, you just have to check the data and the societies that lived like this until not so long ago.
The patriarchal structure is so instinctually bound into humans that men and women have objective observable differences in how they think and perceive the world through thousands of years of evolution. This idea that it never existed until "personal property" became a thing is pretty… dumb.
>>105860>That being said, no you fucking don't. A pre-agricultural tribe isn't the paradise you're dreaming up. It's a shithole and you would have died before you reached thirty. "muh ancient society" is a moid-tier larp, it's better to think of women's futures instead rather than wanting to return to that shit.
Not really. While it's true the lifespan wasn't as long as ours, part of that drag down was early infant death. If you actually managed to live long enough to be an adult, you were pretty solid to stay alive for another few decades unless you did something absolutely stupid. Not saying 60s were typical, but not unheard of.
What makes you think that?There are dozens of accounts of women being forced into marriages and gang raped as punishment. I was reading an account by a woman who witnessed herself the maltreatment of women in a primitive tribe. Some were nicer, some were crueler, but patriarchy (especially in the form of arranged marriages) were seen across all cultures.
You can't just take something you don't like and claim it to be moid propaganda, I'm afraid it doesn't quite work that way.
Life will always be shit, especially for women. Still, I think it'd be less shit if we returned to a certain lifestyle. It would make it less shit for the other creatures inhabiting our planet too, its not just beneficial for people
Im indigenous and clearly none of you know anything about how we lived. Sure there were age gap relationships but that doesn't mean they were forced. My great grandma loved her husband. They stayed together for life having like 14 children. And no he did not beat her when he came back from hunting.
I'm pretty sure actual anthropologists know more about the cultures and civilisations they study than laypeople, indigenous or not.
No offense, really, but I am a bit sick of people bringing up individual anecdotes in discussions about scientific or sociological issues as if they had any broader relevance whatsoever.
This idea of pre-agricultural communities somehow being pure and woke and uncorrupted by the evils of civilisation is as old as colonialism itself, and also evidently wrong. It is nothing but a fairy tale. The Noble Savage does not exist.
I’m a different anon. Just admit that you’ve been and now you’re full of parasites.
As if you could speak for the thousands of primitive cultures in existence just because your grandmother grew up in an indegenous society (which was probably severely altered by your time because of the influences of the outside or even researchers over time).
I'm not denying women being treated like shit in tribes, a lot of tribes have intense rape-cultures that see sex as either a punishment or a form of initiation. However, in most hunter-gatherer societies males depend on women to gather food, so raping a woman and smashing her face in with a rock wouldn't be beneficial to their survival. It wasn't until the agricultural era that males became the main providers and had absolute power over women. The part that I think is moid propaganda is the idea that women needed to be abused in order to develop civilisation.
>I think it'd be less shit if we returned to a certain lifestyle
No, they are not, they are abstract indicators of mean economic wealth which no one but economists and speculators deeply care about and of litteral non-issues like being able to read or knowing which is the longest river in the world, which like 95% of people were not able to do through all of human history, yet that did not impact their life the slightest as they are no essential skills. They are bonuses, surplus, only really useful in a modernized society.
Medical advances may be the only actual improvement, but as they are leading to massive overpopulation, only time will tell whether letting an unchecked population boom exponentially rise was a "positive improvement" in the long run.
> Until not so long ago most people didn't have to care about mental health
Because that is a non-issue outside of first world nations, which have a mental health crisis/epidemic that is constantly increasing among the young generations.
Again, as a matter of fact, people are not "getting happier" by any measurable metric. In the first world, they are getting sadder, in the third world, we have no real metrics beyond abstract actuarian calculations about strictly economic issues that some bureaucrat pretends may apply to actual mental health and well-being. If anything, due to increase in urbanization in largely unfit cities, labour exploitation and other nice results of globalization driven primarily by corporations, I would wager their lives are getting shittier.
>dying at five>no food>work 18 hours a day>die at 30
Gross exaggerations, did you learn them from some movie about the middle ages? You know, the ones with an ever-present grey filter and people waddling in muds and riding pigs
>>105996>no one but economists and speculators deeply care about
The best available data shows that life was terrible. Of course, the data is not 100% precise and some mistakes might happen. But it's still the best data we have. Cliometrics have advanced a lot over the last decades. It can give us a good picture of how terrible life used to be.
The XXth century has the Armenian Genocide, the Holodomor, the Holocaust, the Generalplan Ost, the Great Leap, the Cambodian Genocide among others. And yet, it was the safest century of all. The XXIth century is predicted to be even more safe.
I'm only talking about violent deaths, if we consider deaths by old diseases, for centuries, Smallpox used to kill each year more than Covid-19 has killed so far, even though the population was a lot smaller; Malaria used infect 30% of the population each year, also killing millions; and since you couldn't save food Cholera was also far more common; and heck, we didn't even have antibiotics untill a century ago.
Famine was also far more prominent.
No, the vast majority of the population died as children. One-quarter of infants died in their first year of life and around half of all children died before they reached the end of puberty. We've reduced this number by 90%.https://ourworldindata.org/child-mortality-in-the-past>did you learn them from some movie about the middle ages?
My sources are Harvard and Oxford professors. What are your sources? Your wishful thinking?
>>106003>still relying on magical happiness index
Think of any animal, and when that animal is removed from its natural environment, it very quickly becomes depressed because its life is unfulfilling, and because they were never built to live in such a way. Its exactly the same as humans.
The medical advancements are just leading to overpopulation and the death of the planet, nothing to balance out the high births. Human life is overvalued today.
I am against all forms of civilization, even primitive ones. We should return to hunter gatherer lifestyles, so no need to talk about genocides that were only made possible by civilization.
why are you citing examples of horrible conditions from civilization, you are arguing in favor of civilization?
Before modern technology =! before civilization. Modern technology is just one of the main evils of civilization.
Even ancient civilization is not something good.
>>106007>it proves I'm downright wrong>m-maybe if I say it's not "magical" my point will stand!
Again, do you have any source, or it's just a subjective, unacademic, antiempiricist, irrational rambling?>when that animal is removed from its natural environment, it very quickly becomes depressed
That's truth only if the animal was created in the nature. Humans, just like animals, are a tabula rasa. If the average human moves to the forest, it will become depressed. >The medical advancements are just leading to overpopulation and the death of the planet,
That wasn't your point. You said life now is worse than it used to be. It isn't, since most people would die before they could even think for themselves. It was refuted so now you changed the subject. In any way, you're still wrong. Technological advancement leads to less use of natural resources, not more. >Human life is overvalued toda
It is more important than the lives of any other lifeform. >>106009
Fine, so what are you doing on the Internet. You can larp as the guy from Into the Wild if you want to. Though you'll probably very quick die just like he did. >>106012
Just read my post again. I'm talking about the entire history of mankind, including long before civilization, when things were even worse than 200 years ago.
>No property. So much freedom
Oxymoron. Property IS freedom. It's not even like one can't exist without the other, they are almost the same thing.
>>106003>I litterally say that abstract indicators of economic wealth and the magical happiness index are speculative hocus pocus which do not actually directly correlate to mental well-being, and things like litteracy and knowing which is the tallest mountain in the world are un-essential to happiness in life>she goes onto post exactly those abstract actuarian stats that do not correlate the slightest to mental well-being
As I said, the only factually relevant advancements (and for now, seemingly positive ones) are the ones in medicine, whose net effect we will be only able to judge in decades, as they are now leading to over-population which is a catalyst for catastrophes. Not one of the other factors can be directly linked to an increase in "happiness".
Just looking at some indexes, >basic education>literacy
By and large irrelevant to human happiness>democracy
Western democracy is rule by corporation and special interest group aka aristocracy with a more polite facade>colonialism
Barely changed things, for most people living within or outside colonies life was the same as before and after, which man sits in the presidential office is hardly relevant to your life>continent
More people living in more warthorn and unstable areas is hardly an improvement>extreme poverty
Extreme poverty related to what, to western standards? Because compared to those most people lived in extreme poverty since the dawn of times, and were doing mentally better than modern first world people with their high living standards.
>harvard and oxford professors
Old mummies detached from reality who live in the world of Ideas and see this world of ours in terms of numbers and abstruse actuarian calculations.
Do you want data for increase in depression in westernized/first world/"developed" societies?
Check out suicides per country.
Simply google "increased trend of people on antidepressants"
Check out this https://ideasanddata.wordpress.com/2020/07/08/psychological-well-being-and-societal-progress/
Again, there is nothing suggesting happiness is increasing. And no, some shitty index based on r3uf3rfoi3rui3r's superduperpooper equation to calculate happiness based on stock funds X federal reserve - litteracy rate : infrastructure is NOT a metric of actual mental well-being.
>>106013>not-free countries>sources: World bank, UN
Oh God, it's one of these people.